Out of Ideas and Going Down Fast

topic posted Tue, April 15, 2008 - 1:33 PM by  Angel
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*sigh* alright, here's the deal. I'm generally one of the ones giving the advice, I'd hope well. This time though, I'm at the end of my rope. I don't know what to do to deal with this situation, and if I don't ask for some help soon there's the possibility I will handle things totally wrong.

Reading my profile and such, you get the impression that my wife and I are very open people. The fact is, this is only half... well let's call it 3/4 true.

I love my girl. I love her like the Sun come down from the sky. That said, there is a growing rift starting which unless I get it checked one way or the other is gonna do us in. I'll explain.

While I've got alot of history in sex-positivity, deviant behavior in general. It has historically been almost impossible for me to maintain a sheerly vanilla monogamous relationship. I think it's important to note (not trying to be egotistical) that if I set my mind to it, I am almost razor sharp at seduction. I spent 2 years as a pleasure slave, learning everything from how to do makeup on any ethnicity in the world to bringing a woman to orgasm with nothing but the muscles vibrating in my throat. (hard to explain, harder to teach. lol) I mention it's easy, because it being easy makes the entire situation harder.

Linz, while having her own wild side in her youth was more along the lines of your typical drug-induced deviant-high-school-sex kinda thing. To her, while she indulged me more than once, that was a phase she's done with. My first hot-button here is that due to that fact it's terribly difficult to deal with the fact that she can't share in what has been my lifestyle in one way or another for a loooong long time.

I'm starting to freak out, juuuust a little. I've toned myself down as much as I could. I've suppressed everything from my very certain bisexuality to my tenancy toward the Grey area that lies somewhere between polyamoury and swinging. This has been an issue between us for quite some time. In the beginning, Linz was down for the occasional playtime with a guy/girl/both kinda thing. Still, it came up quite a bit that I'm comfortable in quite a different zone relationship wise than we're currently at.

In the past, jabs were traded, but short of that no resolution was really reached. Time goes by, I keep quiet until I'm about to explode, I try and draw her out, it gets swept under the rug, repeat.

The reason this is more complex than a simple resolve-communicate-or-leave kind of scenario is that in every way... EVERY WAY other than this we're perfectly matched. No deviant encounter has ever led me to a girl I felt as well matched with.

Still, this is my life, this is my personality. I feel resentment growing as I continue to deny this part of my personality, this part of myself.

I've tried to discuss this with people before, most notably my best friend. She commenced to freak out on me due to a year-old threesome we'd all had, and we're now no longer friends.

Just pointing out, that so far all this situation has done for me is take. It's taking my sanity bit by bit. I'm getting a shorter and shorter fuze about the subject, and it's even cost me one of the most important relationships in my life.

In the past, I would just start cheating. You can judge me all you like for that. To me, it's a matter of getting by. However, as you can probably imagine that leads to eventual discovery and disaster. I've been down this road a few times with significant others. Cheating or no, this will eventually overwhelm us.

I just don't know what to do, or to say, to anyone. I could continue the way I am and wait until it's too much and I wrap myself around someone who gets the one part of me my partner doesn't. I could put my foot down and what will likely happen is she will aquiese, at least occasionally, just for my sake, for awhile. Neither of those options are really acceptable to me, but for the life of me I can't find a third.

So I put it to you, perfect strangers. My friends have failed me. My almost macchiavellian ability to agument any relationship with it's missing parts elsewhere is just not good enough for me anymore.

I'm lost. No solution in the past will work here, and I'm fresh out of ideas. I'm frustrated to the point of rage, and feel the time coming where I will sabotage anything just to save something. If linz is part of that everything I may as well fall on my sword right now.

It's maddening, to match someone so perfectly in all but one way.

Especially when it's this.

PS: I'm cross posting this like mad, so you may see it again. I need an idea, an answer. Hope for my situation. Otherwise, I'm not exactly sure I won't become ground zero, and everyone left in my life become casualties.
posted by:
Angel
California
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  • Re: Out of Ideas and Going Down Fast

    Wed, April 16, 2008 - 10:55 AM
    Angel

    From my limited experience it is not unusual for people in this lifestyle to have different desires and relationship goals than your typical vanilla individual. The further from the mainstream you travel in your interests the less likely your potential partner will share them. The key I think is to not necessarily find someone with all the same interests or desires, but to make sure they are accepting and supportive of who you are.

    I hate to sound too mainstream and contemporary but it sounds like there are some communication and possibly trust issues flaring up in your relationship or your perception of it. Have you thought of talking some of this out with a professional instead of with biased friends? There are some fantastic, sex-kink positive, counselors in the bay area who might be able to help the two of you talk out and resolve some issues. There is no shame in speaking with a professional who has seen similar situations in the past.

    Best of luck
  • Re: Out of Ideas and Going Down Fast

    Wed, April 30, 2008 - 11:20 PM
    Same situation. here's what I recommend. Give up the idea that you're free to do what you want. You're going to have to make sacrifices, and and one of those sacrifices is going to be some of your sense of ethics. Get a lover on the side. Two if that's what yo need. A mistress, if you will, or a closeted gay friend. Develop a concurrent and devoted, trusting long term relationship with this person or persons. Make sure you're always honest with them, and they're happy with the status of second place. Then never tell anyone you know ever about this. Make it a secret you take to your grave. It's not ideal for you, who want's a large degree of sexual freedom, but neither would your partner think it was ideal for her, should she ever find out. You both make sacrifices(though she never knows she does, which is really better for her anyway.)The only other options you have are to commit to monogamy( which might not be so bad,) or to leave. No amount of communication will ever change her mind on this, and really, why should she change to fit you, as you're not willing to change to fit her? There's never going to be a seeing of eye to eye, so you're just going to have to accept an imperfect fit. My solution has kept marriages alive and people sane and happy for hundreds of years, I know at first you want to not believe it, but if you really open your mind to it, you'll realize it's perfect.
    • Re: Out of Ideas and Going Down Fast

      Thu, May 1, 2008 - 9:47 AM
      ren, no offense, but i think your advice sucks.

      i don't see any sense at all in cultivating a second "always honest" relationship when you don't have that with your primary. integrity is what counts in relationships, and when you start sneaking around, that lack of integrity directly impacts intimacy (and i'm not equating intimacy with only sexual exchange.) this is a fool's solution.

      angel, since you can't force someone to like what you like, the decision is yours to make - both of you. anything less than fully informed consent is cowardly and unfair.

      sometimes couples make great partners and not great lovers. this is the situation for my own partner, who remains married to his long-time friend and business partner. it took us 5 or 6 years to slowly untangle all the expectations, resentments, and disappointments between 3 strong-willed people, but eventually she found a lover who matches her own needs and now all 4 of us interact as family. but the sexual relationship between the spouses went by the wayside - again, it took that long for a genuinely honest relationship to emerge.

      no relationship is without compromise because NO one is a "perfect" fit. genuine integrity requires a meeting in the middle - NOT your way, not all her way. if the basis of the relationship is love, all kinds of possibilities emerge. not necessarily without a lot of hard work and heartache, but keeping the flame of connection alive is what counts.

      the journey i've been on with this couple has pushed me beyond every limit i thought i had - but having had a failed marriage myself, i'm full of respect and appreciation that these two found a way to love and let go, allowing each of them to find happiness without abandoning each other. it takes a lot of character and a LOT of support. it's there if you're sincere about it.

      i'll add something my 19 year old shared with me: love isn't about finding the perfect partner, it's about seeing an imperfect partner, perfectly.

      good luck in finding your way.


      • Re: Out of Ideas and Going Down Fast

        Thu, May 1, 2008 - 10:26 AM
        All I can say to your criticism of my advice is simply that there are lots of ways to relate to people, don't be dogmatic and judgemental about one unless you're ready to have your own lifestyle knocked. It's simply your own perception that total honesty is the key to making a marriage work. Or that total honesty has anything to do with integrity. If you can keep your two lives totally isolated, compartmentalized, and not have any bleed over, even in your mind, then it's ok to have a secret, and it doesn't effect either relationship. In a perfect world, we would be able to know everything about our wives and husbands before we married them, and this sort of thing wouldn't be a necessity, but the real world is different. Sometimes you get married to someone, then your lives get intertwined, for instance by kids, and you just can't practically leave them, but you're not totally satisfied. You're lucky that your partners all go for the rather unconventional relationship you have set up, but I have a feeling that many wives would not be understanding. They'd want in the marriage totally, or out. So if you don't want out, then you got to squeeze the rules. Marriage is totally different than any other relationship, because of the legal and financial power you have over the other person. I've found that none of my previous relationship experience helps at all, what does help is the years of studying statecraft and diplomacy. If you view your wife not as a friend but as a potential ally, and potential enemy, who you have some things over and who has things holding over your head, then you can play a delicate power dance and both come out on top. The fact is it's in the rational self interest of both parties to find a way to get along, so as long as you make it possible, and you have a big enough threat as an incentive, it all works for the best. As I said earlier, this is how good marriages have worked for centuries(in bad marriages women were property.) Here's a fact. You can have a great loving relationship with your wife, in which you are honest and open about everything, except one thing. That one thing could be your porn rags, it could be that you slip away to play poker with the guys sometimes, or it could be that when you're on that "camping trip with no cell phone service" you're shacking up with your one on the side. Little lies like this only hurt a relationship if they're ever discovered, or if you yourself let them get to be too big a thing in your mind.
        Perhaps it was that I was raised that divorce is one of the sins that you can never be forgiven for, but adultry is forgivable. I still believe that.
        Just to point out some contradictions in your wording, but you can't open a statement with the words "no offense" and then later call a person's solution a "fool's solution". That is, actually, offensive. It's a different solution than your solution. It doesn't make me a fool, it just means I'm a realist and not an idealist.
        I should mention that this isn't how I chose to live my life, but after the failure of my marriage I wish it was.
        • Re: Out of Ideas and Going Down Fast

          Thu, May 1, 2008 - 11:07 AM
          >Little lies like this only hurt a relationship if they're ever discovered, or if you yourself let them get to be too big a thing in your mind.<

          this is one of those things you can believe, but never prove. i have no dogma that "one should never lie", but when you lie about sexual matters, potentially exposing another human being (someone you profess to love?!??) to disease and emotional upheaval, you've gone WAY over the line in terms of "no harm done". do you think it's fair you get to judge what this does to another, without even experiencing the real-world consequences of what you advise?

          my experience is, people know when they are being lied to. the effects of that may be more subtle than a showdown, but they come thru. having no consideration for the other person requires pretty profound arrogance and denial, imo.

          sorry you're offended, but you're talking out of your hat by your own admission.
          • Re: Out of Ideas and Going Down Fast

            Thu, May 1, 2008 - 11:30 AM
            not actually offended, just pointing out that way you're saying is offensive. don't worry about it. As to disease, you're only exposing them to disease if you're exposing yourself to disease. As I have a strict policy of not doing that to myself, it's not an issue. And as to the lying thing, I can say with certainty people only know if they're being lied to if the liar feels bad about it. Otherwise, actually, people are remarkably happy to take whatever you say as true as true, as long as it is plausable. That's why conartists make such a good living.

            Great movie about this subject worth checking out is the old classic, Same Place, Next Year. Such a good film.

            anyway, we're off of the topic of helping angel here, so I'll sign off this discussion.
            • Re: Out of Ideas and Going Down Fast

              Thu, May 1, 2008 - 1:38 PM
              ok, wobbling slightly off topic but yes, you can in fact catch and pass on a disease with no symptoms yourself. ever hear of genital herpes?

              condoms are not fool-proof, and with herpes, especially not. and while one person may have no symptoms, to someone else - someone with eczema, say, or other immune system weaknesses - you are offering a lifetime of misery.

              and that's just the tip of the iceberg in terms of potential harm done.

              as far as getting away with lying, i agree it can be done. but there is no way to measure what it actually does to intimacy. in fact, when you present a dishonest face to a lover, intimacy is impossible - as they do not know who you truly are.
  • Re: Out of Ideas and Going Down Fast

    Thu, May 1, 2008 - 12:00 PM
    Heh, maybe I should step in and streamline this discussion a bit.

    Ren, I've tried that. I've actually been really, reallyreallyreally successful at it for a number of years. So successful it's kind of made me sick. And you're right, it makes things manageable. But the love a bear this person is monumental, my problem comes in the rock and a hard place situation between my nature and the love of my life.

    I don't out of hand have a squick about affairs. I'm not morally wired that way the same way I'm not morally wired to see sex as anything other than what it is, singular to everything, an enhancement to any sort of relationship. I understand, that is VERY subjective.

    However, while my wiring regarding sex hurts no one, a mistress could hurt everyone, her, me, her.

    ...you have to be so careful, and with just the slightest slip things can get so much, so irrevocably worse.

    That's just not good enough for me. But thank you for your advice.
    • Re: Out of Ideas and Going Down Fast

      Thu, May 1, 2008 - 1:42 PM
      angel, if you've successfully lied to your partner for many years, is it any wonder she doesn't respond to you the way you'd prefer?

      duh. show her some respect and some balls, and get honest and deal with the consequences. or watch your relationship continue to
      decline of its own accord - a course you chose, all by yourself.

      at least if she leaves you, you gave her the choice. this way, only you get to.
      • Re: Out of Ideas and Going Down Fast

        Thu, May 1, 2008 - 2:30 PM
        nono

        nonono

        Not to her, go back to my original post. Before it was no big deal, it was the way I got by, the way I learned to move through the world. I was a whore (figuratively) and I was good at it.

        That's not good enough with her.

        What I'm FINDING, is that I can't function freely in a sexual sense in this relationship unless I revert, and reverting leaves a bad taste in my heart. That's all.

        I'm working it out, and trust me if there's anything at play here, lack of balls isn't it.
        • Re: Out of Ideas and Going Down Fast

          Thu, May 1, 2008 - 8:53 PM
          okay. that wasn't clear to me from your post.

          if you can't function freely in your current relationship, and when you revert it feels bad - that sounds present tense, like you've tried sneaking around on this partner.

          all i can say is, if it leaves a bad taste in your mouth, maybe listen to that.
    • Re: Out of Ideas and Going Down Fast

      Thu, May 1, 2008 - 10:26 PM
      Unfortunately, I hate to be the guy that says it, but I'd say your relationship is not meant to be. Unless you're willing to change yourself radically, and maybe if you really love her that much it's what you should do, you're talking basic incompatibilities here. Time to buck up and face it. the fact is, even if you were wiling to change your life and beliefs drastically, she still in the deep parts of her mind thinks of the way you've wanted to live your life for years as "wrong" even if she doesn't say anything, and even if you were willing to change your actions, you'd not only have to change, but repent, and tell her you honestly believe that monogamy is the only moral and good way. Even then she'll always have a one up on you, a wrong that will never go away in her mind. I wish I could break it to you more gently, but I'll just say it straight. it's over
  • Allllll righty!!!

    Fri, May 2, 2008 - 7:45 AM
    Due to the tack this thread is beginning to take I think it's time I type up a proper update. It will probably take me most of the day, I'm at work, but standby.

    Much shall be revealed ;)

    (and yes, I am in a particularly good mood today. heh)
  • Re: Out of Ideas and Going Down Fast

    Fri, May 2, 2008 - 2:54 PM
    when one supresses their true self to please another the inevitable outcome usually is not good. Trying to supress one's true sexuality to please a vanilla mate is only a temporary fix and can only last so long before your needs (and with sex i believe it can very much be a need more than a want) outweigh your desire to conform to your partner's desires. can you two get some counselling? maybe see a kink-friendly therapist? maybe with the help of a sex-positive third party you can negotiate a compromise that is above board and agreeable to both of you. she must know you are not happy. maybe she has fears of her own that she hasn't been able to express. finding a way to both be happy ans stay together takes a lot of work and a lot of compromise and not everyone is cut out for it.

    hope you find your solution and in the meantime i'm sending you lots of hugs my friend.
  • Re: Out of Ideas and Going Down Fast

    Fri, May 2, 2008 - 10:16 PM

    Angel,

    The key here is that you are still looking to have your needs met by projecting it onto others. For example here "where I will sabotage anything just to save something".

    While you may be razor sharp at seduction, all of those are just skills you developed to get your needs met from outside. No matter how kung fu they maybe, still they are based on being met from outside.

    >>>>> This is the most difficult journey of all, to see yourself as the source and object of your desire. <<<<< What I mean by this is that no lover can be as good a lover to you as yourself. And yes, it is possible to be your own lover, your own mother, and your own father. You can also see your self as your own source of inspiration (self-inspired), your own source of motivation (self-engaged), see yourself as your own provider, etc.

    We all have our own way to get this, and I know of very few people that seem to have realized/found their greatest lover, father, mother, source of inspiration within their self.

    Some steps to get started with could include learning, practicing, and experiencing your own feminine sensual energy through systems like Tantra. Their are some great book authors who a few also hold workshops like David Deida

    As a man, I've learned to develop both the female and male energies and allow the two to dance with each other. With just a few breaths I can bring my whole body into an orgasm. But there's so much more that we often seek from a "lover" than just pleasure and love... it is also entwined for our need for a mother, even a father. These archetype energies like lover, father, and mother are all aspects of our energy which we can give ourself.

    I found through a painful journey that no one could give me the mother, and lover lover that I needed better than myself. No one can possibly know exactly what I need better than myself. And I do not need anyone outside to give me this... and sure it is nice. And yes I am in a freedom based relationship.

    The painful part can be the moment you realize no lover will ever be able to meet your needs. There will be pain at that realization so long as you don't realize the gem you've been sitting inside all along...

    much love and best wishes on your journey
    ramiel
    • Re: Out of Ideas and Going Down Fast

      Mon, July 28, 2008 - 9:22 AM
      Hmmmmm, what about the option of holidays? Annual events that allow for spaces of connection with others for short periods, say a weekend affair that happens once or twice a year, maybe around an event that would allow you to feed these other parts of your life with her blessing? Perhaphs even her witnessing and proticapating to some degree?
  • Re: Out of Ideas and Going Down Fast

    Wed, February 4, 2009 - 9:04 PM
    Ok, so I just got read up on this thread, and I noticed the last posting happened back in May. I'm wondering where you are now concerning resolution of this issue, and whether you are interested in more advice or a new perspective. I have some ideas of my own, but would rather wait to see if they are still relevant before responding. Hope all is well!
  • Re: Out of Ideas and Going Down Fast

    Mon, July 6, 2009 - 6:05 PM
    It's over now.

    All the scheming, all the compartmentalising is finished. It was wiped away in a few seconds. I keep playing the scene over in my head, wondering what I was thinking, what made me that brazen in that moment. All I come back to is that they were so beautiful, just too amazing to pass up this time, at this moment.

    I didn't even stop when I started noticing people I knew walking by. I dissapointed the hell out of my friends, good people, ones I loved dearly. There was only skin, eyes, teeth, lips, and me.

    I will not deny who I am for one more second.

    I love women. I love the sounds the make, and the way they move, and I want all of them all of the time. But someone I love never knew the level of it all and here I am now. I have blisters on my feet and my entire wardrobe is most likely somewhere between here and the 405. I keep moving from the bed to the table to the Tequila and then back to the bed. Everything about me feels disconnected, rather half-connected. No one to blame but me.

    While I'm sitting here I'm forced to realize some things about myself, like I've never been *out* of a relationship. From sixteen until now I've been hopping from one place to another, always keeping a foot in one pool while trying to leap to the next. This is no way to do things, not any longer. It chips away at my spirit until I'm... well until I'm like I am now, unshaven unwashed and unable to move. I realize that there was something horribly wrong, too far back for me to see. I'm not sure what, but I have my theories. My brother hung himself in jail three weeks ago rather than serve a thirty year sentence for rape. There has got to be *something* back there.

    Right now, I'm trying to pick up the pieces or at least to start considering picking something up in earnest. In the meantime I go from tire-tread numb to surface of the sun panic, it rolls over, it comes back. Within it I'm reminded that I've left a corpse by the highway, and it was a beautiful girl that just wanted to love me. It wasn't her fault she never knew who me, was.

    For now these cigarettes keep burning down, one after the other. I breathe in, then I breathe out. I roll over in my mind if I am sick, or if I was just unable to express who I really was for so long that I don't know how to do anything else. If all this has a blessing it's that denial isn't one of the tools in my armory any longer. That should offer some solace, but all I feel is each person I've let down, every wasted thing I ever said.

    It's over, maybe it's starting. Maybe it's a waste and maybe I'm better off dead. If my chest ceased rising I'd be just that pretty thing, unable to betray or lie or do anything other than just be.

    I have to chuckle at the irony in that. In death to be able to do the thing I found so hard in life. Just be. At once all the profunditity of trying to understand myself and not hurt others rendered successful and final.

    Mother Moon, Sister Storm, Father Sun help me.

    For I am lost.
    • Re: Out of Ideas and Going Down Fast

      Mon, July 6, 2009 - 6:44 PM
      angel - you're in a place where the thinking is just going to run you in increasingly unhealthy loops.

      not easy to stop, but doing something physical - on your own - will help. exercise. walk. run. start a garden. commit to being in your body, and not your head for a good while. don't lean on any behaviors that might be or become self-destructive.


      you did her a favor. it probably doesn't feel like that to either of you eight now, but when 2 people can't meet each other halfway, where BOTH their basic needs are met, it's just not going to work. any kind of major power imbalance is going to eat away at one or the other, either physically, emotionally, or psychologically. it's a kind of violence people perpetrate on each other all the time, mistaking it for "love".


      in another year, come back and consider this: your entire life is a feedback system, both the good and the bad stuff. "being yourself" is not a fixed thing, it's a fluid thing, and relationship is part of what changes the contours of who we are. anybody who wants to be in genuine relationship has to accommodate the dynamic changes that occur - and that's not about denying who we are. it's a recognition that who we are is meaningless without meaningful relationship with others.

      this too shall pass. it happened, so there it is. i hope you can keep going with a healthy curiosity to discover what it all means for you.



    • Re: Out of Ideas and Going Down Fast

      Wed, July 22, 2009 - 12:07 PM
      I am a Soulful Sound Healer, a recognized musician and teacher. Recently I started working with two remarkable women who bring people back to wholeness. It is time for you and all of us to be free in who we truly are and bring your soul back into the wholeness with the body, mind and spirit anchored in your heart. I intend you are healthy, happy and whole. You are free to contact me and work with me to gently release aeons of disconnection from the source of all love, beauty and energy. You are free. Now. Claim your power back.

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