fluidity and fear

topic posted Tue, December 19, 2006 - 11:40 PM by  Cloé Marité
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just a quick thought...

how do you all feel about, or navigate, fear and emotional insecurity?

i know i have worked hard (and am still working...) to overcome
my very inhibiting default for security and invulnerability...
control and emotional bondage
rather than openness and honesty...

my deep fear of abandonment has often impeded my own very
natural fluid flow. tripping me over myself.

and further more, when we recognize in a beloved, the same
tendancy to 'shoot oneself in the foot' and sabataugue the opportunity
of true love, intimacy and trust, out of fear of being hurt... fear of the 'end'
and risk an even greater loss, that of never beginning.

how do you all approach these hurts and fears in yourselves and
those whom you would love?
posted by:
Cloé Marité
Canada
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  • j
    j
    offline 2

    Re: fluidity and fear

    Wed, December 20, 2006 - 12:31 AM
    honesty. brutal, painful, awful, beautiful honesty.

    to me, it's really important to communicate about patterns of behavior, whatever they may be, before they show themselves. it sounds as if you've already done the work to identify these. overcoming them by oneself is so effin difficult, so sharing this responsiblity with your partner may allow for greater success. i actually think this is one of the most important reasons for relationship.

    when you, or he or she, then starts to act out in ways that are already understood, it's much less threatening. the likelihood of the secondary reaction of the other is not as great (i.e. i can't believe this crazy %$^^& said/did that crazy shit. i'm so fucking outta here. or something of the like). which then allows the other to just be a witness to insanity that they knew may be coming, not a reactionary participant in something which blindsides them. actually, they get to do the complete opposite, which is care for the other during their times of, well, insanity is the word i like to use, kinda like they would if the other had a cold or decided to go into advertising.

    not an easy task, but an ounce of prevention...

    good luck and hang in there....rob


  • Re: fluidity and fear

    Wed, December 20, 2006 - 7:28 AM
    Hi all.

    I'm new here too, by the way, and from reading various posts here I get a sense that "fluid" might be a good way to describe how I truly feel about relationships.

    "how do you all feel about, or navigate, fear and emotional insecurity?"

    This is a great question--and not only about our own fears, but also about reassuring others that we're not out to hurt them.

    "i know i have worked hard (and am still working...) to overcome my very inhibiting default for security and invulnerability...control and emotional bondage rather than openness and honesty..."

    I look at it this way: If I'm not open and honest, people aren't getting my "real self," and therefore people would never really be able to make honest judgments for themselves as to how they feel about me--and the truth generally comes out anyway, so I may as well just realize that I'm not invulnerable.

    "my deep fear of abandonment has often impeded my own very natural fluid flow. tripping me over myself. "

    Being abandoned definitely hurts like hell. I've been left by people I thought would be in my life for quite awhile, people I honestly cared about, and there are people I miss to this day. Heartbreak sucks. The trouble is, if I abandon _myself_ to fear, I'm right back to square one, and I can't say that self-abandonment is any less heartbreaking than abandonment by others.

    "and further more, when we recognize in a beloved, the same tendancy to 'shoot oneself in the foot' and sabataugue the opportunity of true love, intimacy and trust, out of fear of being hurt... fear of the 'end' and risk an even greater loss, that of never beginning."

    Here's where I almost always run into trouble--how to reassure others that there are other choices besides fear? I'm still stumped about that. In fact, most of the time when someone has left, it's been at least partly because they were afraid I'd leave, so they just decided to leave first. It's led me to think that a big cause of people abandoning each other might actually be...fear of abandonment.

    "how do you all approach these hurts and fears in yourselves and those whom you would love?"

    When I feel a fear of abandonment, I remind myself that there really is no 100% security anywhere, and that by defaulting to that fear, I am also abandoning at least myself and perhaps others as well. When someone else feels it, I generally try to find a similar situation in my life that hurt me just as the other person is afraid of being hurt, and feel some empathy, while also saying the same things I'm saying here and pretty much saying "It's your choice, and you're the only one who can make it."

    I hope this make some sense...Sometimes my writing is a bit convoluted, I know.

    Peace,
    --Andy
    • Re: fluidity and fear

      Wed, December 20, 2006 - 5:38 PM
      thanks both of you... those are both wonderful responses.

      (and not convoluted at all;)

      just for fun, i just sent the lyrics of this song to a would-be beloved,

      and i thought i would share them here too...

      ************************

      Leonard Cohen - Ballad Of The Absent Mare
      ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

      Say a prayer for the cowboy

      His mare's run away

      And he'll walk til he finds her

      His darling, his stray

      but the river's in flood

      and the roads are awash

      and the bridges break up

      in the panic of loss.

      And there's nothing to follow

      There's nowhere to go

      She's gone like the summer

      gone like the snow

      And the crickets are breaking

      his heart with their song

      as the day caves in

      and the night is all wrong



      Did he dream, was it she

      who went galloping past

      and bent down the fern

      broke open the grass

      and printed the mud with

      the iron and the gold

      that he nailed to her feet

      when he was the lord



      And although she goes grazing

      a minute away

      he tracks her all night

      he tracks her all day

      Oh blind to her presence

      except to compare

      his injury here

      with her punishment there



      Then at home on a branch

      in the highest tree

      a songbird sings out

      so suddenly

      Ah the sun is warm

      and the soft winds ride

      on the willow trees

      by the river side



      Oh the world is sweet

      the world is wide

      and she's there where

      the light and the darkness divide

      and the steam's coming off her

      she's huge and she's shy

      and she steps on the moon

      when she paws at the sky



      And she comes to his hand

      but she's not really tame

      She longs to be lost

      he longs for the same

      and she'll bolt and she'll plunge

      through the first open pass

      to roll and to feed

      in the sweet mountain grass



      Or she'll make a break

      for the high plateau

      where there's nothing above

      and there's nothing below

      and it's time for the burden

      it's time for the whip

      Will she walk through the flame

      Can he shoot from the hip



      So he binds himself

      to the galloping mare

      and she binds herself

      to the rider there

      and there is no space

      but there's left and right

      and there is no time

      but there's day and night



      And he leans on her neck

      and he whispers low

      "Whither thou goest

      I will go"

      And they turn as one

      and they head for the plain

      No need for the whip

      Ah, no need for the rein



      Now the clasp of this union

      who fastens it tight?

      Who snaps it asunder

      the very next night

      Some say the rider

      Some say the mare

      Or that love's like the smoke

      beyond all repair



      But my darling says

      "Leonard, just let it go by

      That old silhouette

      on the great western sky"

      So I pick out a tune

      and they move right along

      and they're gone like the smoke

      and they're gone like this song
  • Re: fluidity and fear

    Wed, December 20, 2006 - 9:16 PM
    I tend to avoid intimate relationships. It helps that I spend a lot of time online, and don't go out much, except to school and support groups. I'd love to overcome my fears enough to get, and keep, my love. If he is out there! Trust me, I've had my heartbreaks and rejections, also. I fantasize and dream alot about sex, read erotic literature, create and surf erotic blogs, some with sexy photos.
    • Re: fluidity and fear

      Sat, December 23, 2006 - 9:26 PM
      Sometimes, the more we try to hold on, the faster love slips away.
      And monogamy is no cure for abandonment...
      Fear is love turned inside out.
      It's a reflection, but it isn't love.
      A difficult bridge to cross...
  • insecurity & fear

    Wed, December 20, 2006 - 9:41 PM
    on this solstice evening, i am feeling a bit dark, but am somehow comforted by the realization that feelings of fear, insecurity, abandonment etc. are to be expected... they are normal feelings visiting our bodies ... we humans are hard-wired for all of that (and more), and it is a waste of energy to live life expecting it to be other than it is.

    from that persective, we have a chance to truly meet those feelings as they are, and not try to banish them as unwelcome guests from our table. we can marvel at their power and respect them as they try to wreak havoc on the carefully arranged veneer of civilization; the lovely patterns of dishes & silverware...

    those emotions are part of the primitive forces of survival that have brought us this far... even if they are misguided... so now in our recognition of their service to us, can we possibly embrace them and be bigger than them, to take us to the next level of our human-ness....

    to really love... all of it...
    • Re: insecurity & fear

      Thu, December 21, 2006 - 12:08 AM
      This might sound really strange, but...

      In some ways I think the most erotic thing of all--at least for me--is the moment when a person realizes that they actually don't need to be afraid, even when it has nothing to do with sex. It's that moment when someone realizes they've been running in circles, thinks "Maybe I don't need to do that anymore," and spreads their wings. Maybe "erotic" isn't quite the right word though.

      I'm not sure I'd want to embrace fear, insecurity, or abandonment. It would feel to me like embracing hunger instead of making sure people had enough to eat. Perhaps I'm seeing just a different side though...I think we're "hard-wired" to feel a need to belong, definitely, so when we aren't feeling like we belong, or when we feel like we used to belong but don't anymore, it's painful. Lately, it seems to me that fear is actually the centerpiece in our civilization's "lovely patterns of dishes & silverware..." (and what a great image that is, by the way!) We're so often told to avoid, watch out for, or prevent certain things, and for a long time now I've wondered if that's really gotten us so far, given the current state of the world.

      Peace,
      --Andy
      • Re: insecurity & fear

        Thu, December 21, 2006 - 7:59 PM
        Thanks, Andy, for bringing that one up!
        When the "need to belong" is based on FEAR, and my CONTINUING to "belong" is based on my ability to not AROUSE fear, AND the ones with whom I "belong" aren't willing to help me work through all this fear and *breathe our way to THE OTHER SIDE of fear.... which is E-C-S-T-A-C-Y.... that place where My Kind of Sex lives...... Well, let's just say I've either been banished from these places, or else I leave them, perhaps for good, or else I have a *very* hard time forcing myself to show up at them.....
        On The Other Hand.... when the "need to belong" is based in LOVE.... the kind of love that KNOWS HOW to deal with the Fear.... and does NOT banish people based on "oh, lookie, he's misbehaving... his fears are coming up, we don't like his behavior, let's kick him out.... we're just waaaayyy too holy for HIM....."
        No WONDER I do not thrive well in groups that are based on Exclusiveness, Secrecy, and Hiding.
        How rotten I feel when I see a big, glittery party in town which all the OTHER kids (almost) are invited to, EXCEPT ME....
        Smart Linda then knows to throw her OWN freakin' party.... and pray for the stupids who just LOVE to create more boredom by senselessly throwing HER out of THEIR parties.....
        Smart Linda also has the ability to put together some Very Nice Playmates when SHE wants to...... and create her own Cathedral of Orgasms, Temple of Sirens, or whathaveyou.....
        I, Linda, forgive the Purveyors of the New Age Brothel..... my nickname for a certain organization whose ads grow ever bigger and more outrageous (yes they banished me for good; they couldn't handle MY dark side's bursting out suddenly).... at least HEAVEN is non-exclusive!!
        • Re: insecurity & fear

          Fri, December 22, 2006 - 7:07 AM
          Most of my life, I've had what I've come to call "that wrong-planet feeling." It may or may not be for similar reasons to the alienation you feel, but it's still alienation. so I really empathize with what you say.

          The thing about fear is, it seems to me that it takes at least two--someone who fears, and someone(s) or something(s) that is/are the target(s) of the fear. The person or thing that seems to "arouse" fear only does so because the person who fears has learned to fear the person or thing in question, or because the target of the fear belongs to some perceived group of "people and/or things to fear." Our brains are really good at categorizing and grouping, and that's not even necessarily a bad thing. The problem comes when people forget they're doing that and see only categories, not individuals. So, the bottom line here is, I'm not sure that you necessarily "arouse" fear, so much as that you're running into people's inability to deal with the fact that you're an entire person rather than just one aspect which they happen to have learned to fear. Just to simplify a bit...I'm basically talking about prejudice and ignorance, those old monsters that have been putting humans through hell for millenia.

          I remember very clearly how I learned to swim. See, when I was a little kid, I had this swimming teacher who used to toss me in the water and yell "Kick! Kick!," while I flailed around, terrified. I'm pretty sure he actually meant well, but at five years old there was no way for me to know that at the time. Oh god, I used to _hate_ swimming lessons. I had nightmares often about being at the bottom of a topless swimming pool--and no, I don't mean there were girls
          running around bare-chested, I mean the swimming pool of my nightmares had a bottom (to which I would invariably stick, with an infinite amount of water pressing me down from above) but no top, no surface. (Wow, talk about "fluidity and fear"...In my dreams, I was drowning in water, which is probably our most familiar fluid! Sorry, I can't resist a cheesy joke...) Anyway, that was when I was in kindergarten. When I was in elementary school, I ended up in a school that actually had a swimming pool, so sometimes in gym class we'd go swimming. By that time I'd gotten so I could do OK in the shallow end of the pool, but the mere thought of swimming in water that reached over my head would induce panic. One day, I was just kind of hanging in the shallow end and I saw my friends over at the other end of the pool, jumping in, laughing, just having a damn good time, and something just hit me like a flash. Suddenly I was just plain tired of being afraid--not frustration exactly, like a struggle to "banish" it, but just this feeling of "I'm tired of always having to feel afraid!" Almost before I knew what I was doing, I took off toward the deep end of the pool. Of course, my panic about deep water was notorious by then, so most of the kids and adults there nderstandably thought I didn't know I was doing that and there were lots of shouts of "Hey! Andy! That's the deep end...," and I said very calmly "I know. I know it is. I don't care. I don't wanna be afraid anymore," and when I realized I actually _wasn't_ afraid anymore I started laughing. See, when I tried to struggle and dance with the fear to get it to let me try it slowly, etc., it never worked. At some point, I had to just decide "Screw this, I'm trying something different now," and I'm not sure that all the coaxing, coaching, and "working through it" in the world would have gotten me there. At some point I just had to...be there. Everyone was so shocked--including me--but they misunderstood. It wasn't even "confidence" that got me over my fear, not really. It was purely a desire to shake off the infinite weight of all that fear holding me down, so I could just...live...and yes, that moment was totally ecstatic.

          I'm not sure that one _can_ "force" oneself to go to that place. It's like "trying hard to relax," or "not thinking about a blue elephant." The more you struggle to get there, the further away you are from it, because by definition it's the place where the struggle stops. Even trying to stop struggling won't do it. Maybe sometimes we're in a space where we feel we need the _struggle_ to get there even more than we need to get there, and perhaps there are valuable things to learn in that space as well. I think when you decide you want to be there, you'll probably find you were there all along. Several times throughout my life I've had those moments, when "dealing with fear"...like the only way for me to "deal" with it is actually to stop trying to "deal" with it and just...be. It's slippery though, because--at least for me--it just kind of has to happen...BAM!...and it can be really disorienting until I realize what happened and just roll with it.

          A lot of things get called New Age, and some of those things make sense to me while others seem like a lot of slogans and what I call "self-help-speak." The thing that really baffles me about a lot of it is, yes, some of it probably really is an honest attempt to feel one's connection with the Universe, etc., but it seems a lot of it is based on compartmentalizing oneself into "sides" (light/dark, spirit/body, sacred/profane, etc.) and then having the "sides" struggle for "balance" or "unity" of some kind. I've wondered for a long time what would happen if we quit even compartmentalizing ourselves to begin with. My two-year-old niece has no clue about light versus dark, spirit versus body, etc...Hell, she's not even clear yet about the difference between "yes" and "no"...and she's one of the happiest kids I've ever seen. She hasn't learned to get in her own way and trip herself over yet, as us silly adults have.

          Neither heaven nor hell are exclusive. Both will take anyone who happens to be there to create them. It's just up to us to decide what we're going to create. Did you ever hear the Greek myth about Pan, the goat god? Pan was in a flute-playing contest with Apollo and he lost, so he was banished to live in a mountain cave. The thing is, it always seemed to me that Pan got the better end of the deal, in a way. Oh sure, Apollo got to "win" and show everyone what a kick-ass god of music he was, but then he always had that image to maintain. Pan, on the other hand, got to give up the struggling and general soap-opera-esque BS the other gods kept getting caught up in. He got to chill in his cave, and make friends with a bunch of nymphs, and live his life playfully and joyfully. Some say that he'd play his Pan-pipes when people walked by to scare them away--That's in fact where the word "panic" comes from--but I've always wondered about that. I bet he was actually trying to invite them to join his party, and those who still needed to struggle and worry simply couldn't relate so they freaked out. At least that's how I choose to interpret the story.

          Anyway, I hope at least some of this makes sense.

          Peace,
          --Andy
          • Re: insecurity & fear

            Fri, December 22, 2006 - 8:20 PM
            Well, WHEN I go to "that place of no-mind, no-fear, here-and-now", I will know I am ready.
            I can't force myself.
            People literally spend years, in order to get to That Moment.
            This is why you can't push enlightenment on anybody else.
            Rather like ripping off a no-longed-needed bandaid VERY fast.... it's less painful, that way!
            • Re: insecurity & fear

              Sat, December 23, 2006 - 5:49 AM
              That's a great analogy--fear as a BandAid. Yes, it can protect--but it can also get in the way, and there may even be things that fear won't protect from so in some cases fear may not even be the best response. It just depends on so many factors. When it comes off though, we may not even necessarily be "ready" in the usual sense. This is a little difficult to explain...I mean, yes, obviously if it comes off, that means there was a change we made somehow even if we're not sure what the change was at first, but often it's not a straight linear thought process of "Well, gee, I think I'm ready now, so therefore..." It's more like "Huh? What happened...? Oh, I guess the fear's gone now."

              Is there such a thing as being ready to let go of fear...but not being ready to be _ready_? Whoah, that one could go into infinite recursion.

              By the way, I don't consider myself to be enlightened in the sense of being on a plane above fear (or any of the other nasty stuff). I'm not even sure enlightenment works that way really. I still do have fears, old aches, etc. But sometimes, when I least expect it, there's that "light bulb going on" moment when everything just clicks and it all gets much simpler. One of the people I miss most, someone who used to be in my life but no longer is, used to call it simply "Ahhhhhh!," and I always found that a very apt description. That may have even been the earliest word for what we now call "enlightenment."

              It happens when it happens.

              Peace,
              --Andy
          • Unsu...
             

            Re: insecurity & fear

            Sun, December 24, 2006 - 12:59 AM
            Andy, your story about overcoming your fear of the water is beautiful. I found myself nodding, thinking "Yes, he gets it!"

            "I know. I know it is. I don't care. I don't wanna be afraid anymore,"

            Thanks for sharing.
            • Re: insecurity & fear

              Wed, December 27, 2006 - 1:41 PM
              I don't have a whole lot of time to write about this, but wanted to say that my 'coming to terms' with this happened over several years and was essentially fueled by my fear, jealousy, etc. over my girlfriend at the time. i found myself acting in ways I didn't like and started really reflecting about how my behavior was possibly contributing to the problems.

              When it came right down to it, I looked at the 'negatives' and 'positives' of acting a certain way - mostly revolving around jealousy. When you try to control someone, or guilt-trip them or place your fears on them, they are almost assuredly going to feel that in a negative way. Why would I want to make someone feel that way, much less myself? It's kind of like trying to grab a balloon - squeeze to hard on one end and it will pop out on the other. I came to the realization that jealousy, fear, etc. do not contribute in a good way to myself or my partners happiness and that letting them go was the best thing in all cases. No matter how you try to control someone, ultimately they're going to do what theyr'e going to do - and by being the jealous type or what have you, you're probably giving them more of an excuse to seek what they want elsewhere.

              Besides, who is anyone to tell anyone else what they can or cannot do? Sure, you should talk about how you feel, but expecting them to change themselves just to satisfy you is really unrealistic. They may do it out of love for you, but only if they truly want to - and when we're talking about things like fear and jealousy, it's unlikely that they're going to feel too good about having to accommodate your issues.

              By practicing being open and at ease with relationships, you'll find they're easier to come by and much better overall. We have this life - why waste it on such detrimental emotional states?
              • Re: insecurity & fear

                Thu, December 28, 2006 - 7:54 AM
                That's a great way to put it. Basically, life is too short to run that wheel of jealousy and fear. I wish more people would get to that realization.

                Has anyone else here ever felt as though, when trying to express this stuff to others, you may as well be speaking an alien language? I can't count the number of times I've been asked "So, Andy...what _kind_ of a relationship is this? If I'm not your girlfriend, what am I?," and had someone stare at me blankly when I responded "How come it has to have a type? Why can't it just be that we really care about/like/love/whatever each other and we're taking things as they come?" Sometimes these were even people who had stayed in relationships that _had_ a type, even though the relationships themselves were going all to hell. Someone even once told me that the fact that I don't get jealous and that I'm OK with "my" partner having whatever relationships they want to have somehow "proves" I've never loved anyone "enough" to be jealous. The whole thing just leaves me going "Whaaaaaat?" When I hear that, it feels exactly like someone saying "You don't want to put me in a cage? Well, I guess you don't love me then." And that's what "commitment" is supposed to be? Don't get me wrong, I do feel very committed to people--just not to a number or a label. So I'm wondering how others with similar views (though I'm sure we all have our own unique perspectives on this) have explained it to others who were feeling a lot of fear.

                Peace,
                --Andy
                • Unsu...
                   

                  Re: insecurity & fear

                  Thu, December 28, 2006 - 2:27 PM
                  It can definitely be hard to explain. Some people don't get it, won't ever get it, and really don't *want* to get it. I sometimes hear women actually extolling their boyfriend's jealousy. WTF?! They find jealousy flattering, and somehow believe that lack of jealousy implies indifference. With that sort of attitude, it's hard to know where to begin, trying to communicate my perspective that jealousy is actually indicative of one's own insecurities, or insecurity toward the relationship itself.

                  Overcoming fear and insecurity in a relationship goes hand-in-hand with overcoming jealousy. After investing emotional time and energy, after vesting oneself in the relationship's success, fearing the pain of failure, rejection, and loneliness is natural. So is the fear of failing at any of the other risks we take in life. But that fear shouldn't stymie our search for fullfillment, enrichment, achievement, and happiness. All relationships, fluid or not, face the risk of eventual failure. Some might say "fluidity" increases that risk. I'd argue the opposite: that fluid flexibility removes the need to decide between the unique pro's of one partner and relationship vs. those of another. (Let the genius of "And" replace the tyranny of "Or"!)

                  As for how to identify what "kind" or relationship you're in, or would like to be, I'm with you. I prefer to avoid labels. I would rather just describe the relationship: "I love you passionately. I am committed to the health and longevity of our connection. I respect you, and honor your independence and individuality. I trust you, and cherish our honesty and openness. I hope you share these feelings, and that together we can be loyal to what's best for each--and both--of us."
                  • This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.

                    Re: insecurity & fear

                    Fri, January 5, 2007 - 11:14 AM
                    Right on to both of you!

                    "Someone even once told me that the fact that I don't get jealous and that I'm OK with "my" partner having whatever relationships they want to have somehow "proves" I've never loved anyone "enough" to be jealous. The whole thing just leaves me going "Whaaaaaat?""

                    Same here, including the 'alien language' thing - so many people like to have nice, comforting labels put on things - they just can't feel 'safe' without them for some reason, even though there is nothing about the relationship that is any different other than calling it one thing or another.

                    And I always ask this - when has jealousy ever improved a reltionship? I've yet to hear a good reply to that one.
                    • Re: insecurity & fear

                      Fri, January 5, 2007 - 1:03 PM
                      This question is going to sound like it has come right out of the blue but bear with me, because it relates strongly to this discussion:

                      My wife and I split up in September. She's got our one car. I haven't bought a new one which is a hassle living in a small town with no transit and riding my bike everywhere in minus 20C weather. I share a car with friends (or more precisely, they share with me).

                      It snowed like crazy here last weekend and my dad and I loaded the snowblower in his van and took it to my freind's to do their driveway. I suggested to them that they probably shouldn't be manually shovelling a 50' driveway of a dense 1 foot snowfall. That's heart attack territory.

                      My dad says his snowblower is getting old and it may not have long to go. I said, "hey, why don't we all pitch in and share one when that day comes?" And he was fairly resistant to that idea.

                      20 houses on the street all out with their $2000 snowblowers at the same time clearing their driveways.

                      So, why do I NEED to own my own car? Why does every house need its OWN snowblower?

                      Why do we feel this crazy compulsive need to own everything in our lives, including PEOPLE????


                      Darn right kc "Whaaaaaat?". Is there any better way of loving someone than wanting them to live a full and wonderful life????
                      • Unsu...
                         

                        Re: insecurity & fear

                        Fri, January 5, 2007 - 2:10 PM
                        Exactly. And I think a lot of it is control, which can take forms both good and bad, depending what you're controlling, and why.

                        I wany my own tools, which I use working on my truck, rather than sharing a communal set with the neighbors. That's because I want to control how they're taken care of, that they don't get lost, and that they're available whenever I need them. I want my own car, because I use it every day and want the flexibility to control where and when I get around.

                        (I guess something as specific and expensive as a snowblower would make to sense to share. And I agree carpooling and public transit make huge sense economically and environmentally.)

                        Obviously we're talking about people though. It makes sense to control the treatment of your tools, because they can't do it for themselves. But isn't the whole point of being human the miracle of our conscious minds and independent individuality? Maybe I don't lend my sockets out, because I'm afraid someone down the block will covet them and keep them for themselves. But with a lover, if that's her choice, to choose another man over me, then who am I to try pulling some B.S. like, "No, you can't. You belong to me."

                        Which is a ridiculous train of logic I hear all the time. "You can't leave me because you *promised* you never would." Why would anyone want to stay in a relationship with someone who wants out? Why would anyone want to be in arelationship sustained by "rules," rather than ongoing and dynamic compatibility, enthusiasm, and shared love?
                        • Re: insecurity & fear

                          Fri, January 5, 2007 - 9:16 PM
                          I guess my situation right now doesn't truly apply, but you are all helping me with your comments anyway. I am a 40 year old single mom with a 14 year-old who moved out a week after Thanksgiving. This came after months of power struggle between us that sometimes got violent. I especially like the idea that I can love and respect her choices even though I feel acutely abandoned and alone. It definitely makes me question my parenting and choices in our lives so far and how much of what I feel is jealousy or insecurity or fear and how much is, well, the fact that she is so young and I am her mother. It all feels really weird. So thank you all of you.
                          • Re: insecurity & fear

                            Sat, January 6, 2007 - 8:59 AM
                            I think all of this really applies to any relationship, regardless of the relationship's nature. It's still all about communication and mutual respect. I'm thirty-nine years old and even _still_ my mom and I are in way different worlds. I've come to see that at the root of my mom's doing things like getting after me to buy a place instead of rent, or getting on me about my generally scruffy look, is that she wants to feel that I'm "doing well." Unfortunately, her definition of that is very different from mine, and I'm not sure whether she'll ever really understand why I choose to do what I do. However, I care about my mom much more than she thinks I do. There have been times when she was there for me when nobody else was, and I will always respect her for that. We kind of went through hell together when I lived with her shortly after I graduated from high school. The trouble is, these days I feel as though I will absolutely never do anything that she feels is good enough, and that's had a distancing effect that I wish weren't there.

                            I guess all that is a bit of a tangent, but anyway, I'm glad this discussion is helping a bunch of people.

                            Peace,
                            --Andy
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    Re: fluidity and fear

    Sun, January 14, 2007 - 9:14 PM
    Based on what I think you are asking and presenting I would say we need to work with that fear and insecurity within ourselves initially because until we come to terms with it and take full responsibility for it we are likely to try to get our partners to make it better for us which will never work and becomes a major obstacle in relationship. I think it comes down to really working with that fear and sense of insecurity, really allowing yourself to go into it when it is triggered rather than trying to make it go away or feel better. By going into it you can let yourself feel your wound around abandonment so you can express and release the pain that is stuck inside. In this way you can remove this blockage and find your inner source of happiness and security because essentially it all comes from within you not from anyone else, you can only share what you have with others. If you are in relationship while working on this in yourself its important to communicate openly with your partner about what you are working on and what you are dealing with as it comes up and see if they can both give you the space to do it as well as support you in the process. I've dealt with abandonment issues myself and know how tough they can be but if you really open yourself up to facing them and going into them you can process and release whats there.
  • Re: fluidity and fear

    Thu, January 18, 2007 - 9:54 PM
    begin by meditating, perhaps using alternate nostril breathing
    Aloud...ask yourself to allow for security to be recognized
    Aloud ...reply to yourself either yes or no
    if answer is yes cont.

    ask yourself when you felt most secure
    notice everthing that comes to you
    write it down ..sing it...dance it!!!
    mantra it into your movement
    play with it
    know that you have the ability to place security into your life

    this is one of my tools
    perhaps you will find it useful
    karin la

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