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POLYAMORY & AHIMSA: Talk with Lovers' Lovers by Sasha Lessin, Ph.D.
Do you always, before you connect with someone with whom you're attracted, talk with that person's lovers?
I attended the Network for a New Culture's two week August
community meeting in the mountains of Oregon and found myself in the middle of an earnest debate that, bottom line, concerned alternate ways of connecting with new lovers.
Model 1: RESPECT EXISTING RELATIONSHIPS BEFORE YOU CONNECT
On one side of the debate, my wife Janet and I advocate complete
candor with the significant others of our would-be-lovers–before we
connect sexually with these prospects. Before we even tell anyone
either of us is attracted to someone, Janet and I speak privately
about whether to communicate our attraction to the objects of desire
one or both of us has. If both Janet and I agree to go ahead, we ask
the person(s) if they're interested in getting to know and perhaps
become friends and then lovers with us.
If our prospective lovers say, "Yes, let's explore going deeper with
each other," we ask to speak with each of their significant others
before we and the prospectives engage sexually. If, when we
communicate with our prospective lovers' lovers, these significant
others say. Okay," we proceed to get to know each other with the
intention of assessing whether to become more intimate.
If the significant others of our prospective lovers say, "Wait till
we too get to know you and Janet," we honor this. If they
say, "Wonderful, we fully support you connecting." we proceed to
develop the friendship that can lead to poly loving.
If, however, the significant others of our prospective lovers
indicate that it would create distress for them which they wish to
avoid, we keep our relating to the would-be-prospectives on the level
of friendship and share no sexuality. We choose to create no pain
for others; it hurts us to distress others, so we refrain from sex
with their lovers.
Model 2: FOLLOW YOUR BLISS SPONTANEOUSLY & LIVE WITH CONSEQUENCES
On the other hand in the debate we had at the conference, some polys
took the position that each person was autonomous and needn't consult
anyone–wife, lover or otherwise, nor need their perspectives consult
anyone before engaging in sex. If their prospective lovers' lovers
get uptight over it, too bad, that's life and maybe pain's what the
prospective's lovers need to grow–if they even have a candor
commitment. This sounds a bit like polyfuckery rather than ethical
polyamory the way Janet and I practice it.
We advocate ahimsa–harmlessness–candor, transparency. We believe in
truth, disclosure and kindness.
How do you practice poly? How do you manage communication with the
significant others of your prospective others? On this site and at
the World Polyamory Harbin Hot Springs (CA) Conference Oct 5-7, we
continue this debate in our panel discussion, How We Do Poly. Let us
know your perspective.
www.schooloftantra.net/worldp...nces/Ha
rbinHotSprings2007/2007_harbin_hot_springs_presentations.html
Do you always, before you connect with someone with whom you're attracted, talk with that person's lovers?
I attended the Network for a New Culture's two week August
community meeting in the mountains of Oregon and found myself in the middle of an earnest debate that, bottom line, concerned alternate ways of connecting with new lovers.
Model 1: RESPECT EXISTING RELATIONSHIPS BEFORE YOU CONNECT
On one side of the debate, my wife Janet and I advocate complete
candor with the significant others of our would-be-lovers–before we
connect sexually with these prospects. Before we even tell anyone
either of us is attracted to someone, Janet and I speak privately
about whether to communicate our attraction to the objects of desire
one or both of us has. If both Janet and I agree to go ahead, we ask
the person(s) if they're interested in getting to know and perhaps
become friends and then lovers with us.
If our prospective lovers say, "Yes, let's explore going deeper with
each other," we ask to speak with each of their significant others
before we and the prospectives engage sexually. If, when we
communicate with our prospective lovers' lovers, these significant
others say. Okay," we proceed to get to know each other with the
intention of assessing whether to become more intimate.
If the significant others of our prospective lovers say, "Wait till
we too get to know you and Janet," we honor this. If they
say, "Wonderful, we fully support you connecting." we proceed to
develop the friendship that can lead to poly loving.
If, however, the significant others of our prospective lovers
indicate that it would create distress for them which they wish to
avoid, we keep our relating to the would-be-prospectives on the level
of friendship and share no sexuality. We choose to create no pain
for others; it hurts us to distress others, so we refrain from sex
with their lovers.
Model 2: FOLLOW YOUR BLISS SPONTANEOUSLY & LIVE WITH CONSEQUENCES
On the other hand in the debate we had at the conference, some polys
took the position that each person was autonomous and needn't consult
anyone–wife, lover or otherwise, nor need their perspectives consult
anyone before engaging in sex. If their prospective lovers' lovers
get uptight over it, too bad, that's life and maybe pain's what the
prospective's lovers need to grow–if they even have a candor
commitment. This sounds a bit like polyfuckery rather than ethical
polyamory the way Janet and I practice it.
We advocate ahimsa–harmlessness–candor, transparency. We believe in
truth, disclosure and kindness.
How do you practice poly? How do you manage communication with the
significant others of your prospective others? On this site and at
the World Polyamory Harbin Hot Springs (CA) Conference Oct 5-7, we
continue this debate in our panel discussion, How We Do Poly. Let us
know your perspective.
www.schooloftantra.net/worldp...nces/Ha
rbinHotSprings2007/2007_harbin_hot_springs_presentations.html
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Re: POLYAMORY & AHIMSA: Talk with Lovers' Lovers by Sasha Lessin, Ph.D.
Fri, September 14, 2007 - 2:50 PMYou need to tinyurl that link, I think...it isn't clickable from here.
Nice synchronicity, this just coming up in my relationship...generally, my partner has dated people we already know, from the poly community, so the issue of candor hasn't really come up. But I recently met someone from a completely different circle who I immediately felt drawn to. We both felt the energy...and he and my partner have a lot in common and hit it off as well. Privately I mentioned that I felt attracted to him, and invited him to meet with my partner and I to discuss the details of our relationship, so he can hear it minus my filters/spin.
It is my belief, that is a really important step, because there are a lot of people out there who really don't have any exposure to poly and how it could work fluidly and sustainably. If they are uncomfortable getting to know my partner and refuse to do so, then it seems that perhaps they are not ready for the kind of transparency, honesty and openness that I want in my life and relationships. There is also the belief that I hold, that we are all one organism, everything we do affects the whole, and the better we learn to make these kinds of relationships work in a loving, kind, compassionate way in our own lives, the more the entire planet benefits.
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Re: POLYAMORY & AHIMSA: Talk with Lovers' Lovers by Sasha Lessin, Ph.D.
Fri, September 14, 2007 - 3:26 PMI have met my lover's wife, and he has met my husband. My lover tells his wife about his Others. I tell my husband about men I am attracted to and hopeful about. No one has veto power or anything like that. I really don't want to know my lover's Others, and since we have a long distance relationship that would be rather cumbersome, anyway. I trust him well enough to know that he will not connect with women who are emotionally unhealthy for him. And, even if he does, it's none of my business. He's a grown man and can figure these things out.
When I want to connect with someone, I want everything aboveboard. I have had several men approach me for a sexual/romantic relationship only to discover that they really were not in an open relationship. I will not help someone cheat on a spouse. I actually told one man that him not getting any wasn't my problem. Actually he thanked me for it, 'cause he and his wife had good talks about her withholds. One reason was that a friend of hers bragged about how she withheld sex from her husband, and so this guy's wife thought that was OK. I lost track of him 'cause he was a nut and not because he wasn't poly. I still would have been his friend. If someone is in a relationship, it is not fair to me or to a wife for a relationship to occur that wasn't completely open. I don't need to meet someone's spouse or partner, but I do need to be respectful of them. I was glad to meet my lover's wife. She's a very nice woman. I feel very honored because she kinda thinks of me as family. Occasionally she includes me on emails that she sends to her siblings and a few friends. Ordinarily I would be annoyed by these types of emails (you know the kind), but from her I find it very endearing. Plus, when I met her, she and I had her husband outnumbered and that made for fun teasing. Sounds like she finds similar things irritating.
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Re: POLYAMORY & AHIMSA: Talk with Lovers' Lovers by Sasha Lessin, Ph.D.
Tue, September 25, 2007 - 3:23 PMSasha, I did know a man on-line once, we talked, the chemistry was great, but clearly his wife was NOT happy about us, and he told me she felt "threatened".... you remember? Well, to date we haven't met, he is still sticking with his wife and taking care of her medical needs, and I've been pretty much enjoying my life of Sensual Celibacy. His wife's health has gone pretty far downhill. What can I do but respect their freewill? It's his choice to stick with her and take care of her hand and foot. I admire his loyalty! I know that if that were ME, he'd do the exact same thing. I've pretty much given-up on ever meeting him in person or sharing a sexual relationship with him, as least as long as she's still alive. We still email every now and then. We ask about each other's lives.
He says he dreams about me and of touching me, and says it would be SO GOOD if I got all the sensual worship, men, and women that I deserve, and that I am a true Sensual Goddess.
Yep, it's hard when you meet someone with whom you have that rare, great chemistry, but his wife or partner feels threatened because of your youth, your sexual impetuousness, or whatever......
I know that Poly Conference is coming up, Sash. I'm being guided to save my money for another special purpose. If I ever make it to one of those Poly Conferences, it would be GREAT to meet you and Janet. -
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Re: POLYAMORY & AHIMSA: Talk with Lovers' Lovers by Sasha Lessin, Ph.D.
Tue, September 25, 2007 - 3:27 PMAnd he has told me, "I'm very much poly, and I've worked hard to convince my wife to be poly, too." And yet I'm not sure if she's just one of those people who agrees to his being poly ONLY to keep him, or because she's truly thrilled at the thought of sharing her husband with other women! I suspect the former. I know of many profoundly polyamorous men. But then I get the impression that the policy regarding non-monogamy is "don't ask, don't tell". The wife KNOWS she's marrying a ladies man, but she loves him THAT MUCH and is willing to put up with that ever-present chance of said man running around with other women, because their love is THAT DEEP. Many famous men, especially rock stars, seem to have this sort of marriage. They are good as gold when their wife is present.... but when the cat's away, the mice will play. And NO I know that is not the same thing as what is called "ethical polyamory". You and Janet are among the purest practitioners of "ethical polyamory" whom I know. Makes me wonder how many lovers you have turned down because it wasn't "quite right"...... Well, you always have EACH OTHER.....
Me, I am married to God (in other words, still single). I'd love to have a man, or men and women, but.... well, no need to run through the list of excuses!! -
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Re: POLYAMORY & AHIMSA: Talk with Lovers' Lovers by Sasha Lessin, Ph.D.
Thu, September 27, 2007 - 11:06 PMBTW have ya noticed Saha does not respond to ya all... Just pointin it out
JSin -
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Re: POLYAMORY & AHIMSA: Talk with Lovers' Lovers by Sasha Lessin, Ph.D.
Fri, September 28, 2007 - 12:35 PMJsin, are you joining the many who have decided to attack me today?
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