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I keep wondering what makes something a projection vs not?
Are there types of projections? Can projections be avoided in a relationship? Is it possible at all or is this implicitly in human nature and it will always be there at some level or another unless one renounces and becomes a Sadhu?
Any examples, insights??
In particular, I am interested in "shadow projection". Have done reading and understainding of this. Would love to hear from you folks.
Are there types of projections? Can projections be avoided in a relationship? Is it possible at all or is this implicitly in human nature and it will always be there at some level or another unless one renounces and becomes a Sadhu?
Any examples, insights??
In particular, I am interested in "shadow projection". Have done reading and understainding of this. Would love to hear from you folks.
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Unsu...
Re: Projections
Wed, February 7, 2007 - 12:55 PMKali, could you explain more what you mean by "projections"?
Thanks,
Trevor -
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Unsu...
Re: Projections
Wed, February 7, 2007 - 10:08 PMi was wondering the same thing Trevor.
..c..
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Re: Projections
Thu, February 8, 2007 - 12:56 AMFrom "Psychoanalytic Diagnosis," by Nancy McWilliams (1994), pp.107-110:
“Projection, Introjection, and Projective Identification
I am combining the discussion of two of the most primitive defensive processes, projection and introjection, because they represent opposite sides of the same psychological coin. In both projection and introjection, there is a lack of psychological boundary between the self and the world. As mentioned earlier, in normal infancy, before the child has developed a sense of which experiences come from inside and which ones have their sources outside of the self, we assume that there is a generalized sense of "I" being equivalent to "the world." A baby with colic probably has the subjective experience of "Hurt!" rather than "Something inside me hurts." It cannot yet distinguish between an internally located pain like colic and an externally caused discomfort like pressure from diapers that are too tight. From this era of undifferentiation come the processes that later, in their defensive function, we refer to as projection and introjection. When these processes work together, they are considered one defense, called projective identification. Some writers (e.g., Scharff, 1992) distinguish between projective and introjective identification, but similar processes are at work in each kind of operation.
Projection is the process whereby what is inside is misunderstood as coming from outside. In its benign and mature forms, it is the basis for empathy. Since no one is ever able to get inside the mind of another person, we must use our capacity to project our own experience in order to understand someone else's subjective world. Intuition, leaps of nonverbal synchronicity, and peak experiences of mystical union with another person or group involve a projection of the self into the other, with powerful emotional rewards to boh parties. People in love are well known for reading one another's minds in ways that they themselves cannot account for logically.
In its malignant forms, projection breeds dangerous misunderstanding and untold interpersonal damage. When the projected attitudes seriously distort the object on whom they are projected, or when what is projected consists of disowned and highly negative parts of the self [SHADOW in the Jungian sense], all kinds of difficulties predictably ensue. Others resent being misperceived and may retaliate when treated, for example as judgmental, envious, or persecutory (attitudes that are among the most common of those that tend to be ignored in the self and ascribed to others). When a person uses projection as his or her main way of understanding the world and coping with life, he or she can be said to have a character that is paranoid.
Introjection is the process whereby what is outside is misunderstood as coming from the inside. In its benign forms, it amounts to a primitive identification with important others. Young children take in all kinds of attitudes, affects, and behaviors or significant people in their lives. The process is so subtle as to be mysterious; yet when one sees it, it is unmistakable. Long before a child can make a subjectively voluntary decision to be like Mommy or Daddy, he or she seems to have "swallowed" then in some primal way.
In its problematic forms, introjection is, like projection, a very destructive process. The most notorious and striking examples of pathological introjection involve the process that has been labeled, somewhat inappropriately in view of its primitivity, "identification with the aggressor" (A. Freud, 1936). It is well known, from both naturalistic observations (e.g. Bettelheim, 1960) and empirical research (e.g. Milgram, 1963), that under conditions of fear or abuse, people will try to master their fright and pain by taking on qualities of their abusers. "I'm not the helpless victim; I'm the powerful inflictor" seems to be the unconscious attraction to this defense. An understanding of this mechanism has critical importance to the process of psychotherapy. It crosses all diagnostic boundaries but is particularly evident in characterological dispositions toward sadism, explosivity, and what is often misleadingly called impulsivity (see "Acting Out" in Chapter 6).
A different way in which introjection can result in psychopathology involves mourning and its relation to depression (Freud, 1917a). When we love people or are deeply attached to them, we introject them, and their representations inside ourselves become a part of our identity ("I am Tom's son, Mary's husband, Sue's father, Dan's friend," etc.). If we lose any of the people whose image we have internalized, whether by death, separation, or rejection, not only do we feel that our environment is poorer for their absence in our lives but we also feel that we are somehow diminished, that a part of the self has died. An emptiness or sense of void comes to dominate our inner world. We may also, if we are focused on restoring the presence of lost objects rather than on giving them up, become preoccupied with the question of what failure or sin of ours drove them away. The appeal of this usually unconscious process is the implicit wish that if we can figure out what we did wrong, we can bring them back (another manifestation of infantile omnipotence). When mourning is avoided, unconscious self-criticism thus takes its place.
Freud (1917a) beautifully described the process of mourning as a slow coming to terms with this condition of loss, in which "the shadow of the object fell upon the ego" (p.249). When a person is unable over time to separate internally from a loved one whose image has been introjected, and consequently fails to invest emotionally in other people (the function of the grieving process), he or she will continue to feel diminished, unworthy, depleted, and bereft. In one regularly uses introjection to reduce anxiety and maintain continuity in the self, keeping psychological ties to unrewarding objects of one's earlier life, one can reasonably be considered characterologically depressive.
Melanie Klein (1946) was the first analyst to write about a defensive process that she found to be ubiquitous in more disturbed patients, which she called "projective identification." This fusion of projective and introjective mechanisms has been compactly described by Ogden (1982):
'In projective identification, not only does the patient view the therapist in a distorted way that is determined by the patient's past object relations; in addition, pressure is exerted on the therapist to experience himself in a way that is congruent with the patient's unconscious fantasy. (pp. 2-3)'
In other words, the patient both projects internal objects and gets the person on who they are projected to behave like those objects, as if the target person had those same introjects. Projective identification is a difficult abstraction, one that has inspired much controversy in the analytic literature (see Finell, 1986). Some have insisted that it is not qualitatively discriminable from projection per se, while others regard the introduction of the concept as having major clinical and theoretical significance (Kernberg, 1975). My own understanding of the term involves the ideas implied in the previous paragraph; that is, projection and introjection each have a continuum of forms, running from very primitive to very advanced (c.f. Kernberg, 1976), and at the primitive end, those processes are fused because of their similar confusion on inside and outside. This fusion is what we call projective identification.”
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Re: Projections
Thu, February 8, 2007 - 9:54 AM
To me, when you are projecting, you are basing your interpretation on what you TIHNK the other person feels or will do based on your own feelings, fears, past experience, rather than really listening to them, and hearing what they are saying.
A quick and dirty example...
I have a friend who saw a photo of my dogs, and immediately decided that they were bad, mean animals because she'd had a 'bad experience' with one of that breed once before, when in fact they are both fairly quet, gentle, sweet, and more submissive than any dog I've ever met. -
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Unsu...
Re: Projections
Thu, February 8, 2007 - 10:52 AMSpartca,
Thank you. That was quite a scientific explanation of projection, shadow projection and PI (Projective Identification). PI is certainly a little challenging as the author herself has mentioned in the sense that in real world, especially in relationships, sometimes its very difficult to realize that there is PI going on. The same fo shadow projection.
What seems to me is that projections are inhenrent in the human pysche. What matters is whether they take on destructive forms or constructive ones. And is one aware of the negative aspects that he/she has cut off from the self and rejects the people who show him/her these parts of the same self and PI.
Whim!
What you say about the example of the dogs, is that projection or is that generalization? Is there a difference? Or is generalization a component of what forms a projection?
I would love to hear of more examples that people have experience in their life in relationship, about themselves become aware of their projections and its consequences, your doubts about projections, more questions - if there is willingness etc etc.
Om
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Re: Projections
Thu, February 8, 2007 - 11:23 AMKali, she IS making a generaliztion about their temperment, but she is projecting her feelings of fear onto them, thereby making the dogs responsible, not her. She will not acknowledge that maybe her fears are unfounded or unreasonable,and refuses to question that maybe she is wrong. -
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Unsu...
Re: Projections
Thu, February 8, 2007 - 4:08 PM"She will not acknowledge that maybe her fears are unfounded or unreasonable,and refuses to question that maybe she is wrong. "
Whim!
Yes, got it.
One incident comes to my mind when I was at a workshop at Harbin. The entire class was divided into smaller groups with one of the assistants leading each group. We would gather in our little group after each excercise to share our experiences.
At one of the meal breaks, my group leader came upto me and said that she would like to give me an honest feedback, which was "I find you to be judgemental and critical. You make me feel that I am wrong."
I was a little shocked at this. However, I thanked her and spent some time reflecting what is it about me that she developed this "perception"?
Later I had a little chat with the main workshop facilitator about this. In response, she asked me who my group leader was. Upon knowing the name of the person, the facilitator's response was: "Its important to be able to distinguish between an honest feedback versus who is projecting. In her case, knowing her personally, I can say that these are her insecurities from her childhood getting projected on you."
Since then I have pondered on difference between projections and feedbacks. Was the "honest feedback" given to me a projection? Or was it simply her perception of me? Or indeed she was able to see something in me that I am not acknowledging myself?
This seems to become a tricky territory to distinguish...... -
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Re: Projections
Thu, February 8, 2007 - 6:43 PMOne thing that can help with thinking about this is my belief that most projections wouldn't have a "screen" onto which to be projected unless there were some kind of hook on which to hang it. By this I mean that perhaps there's the tiniest hint of whatever it is going on in the other person, and I take that little nuance and raise it all my past experiences and hurts.
So, perhaps you were irritated or impatient or otherwise just the tiniest bit less than totally magnanimous with this person, and he or she in turn piled all his or her expectation/experience of being judged onto that little thing.
There are times that this isn't the case, but I find that if someone's projecting with me, I can usually find some little bit of annoyance or whatever that is, indeed, going on inside me.
Best,
Rebecca -
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Re: Projections
Thu, February 8, 2007 - 11:07 PMRebecca-
"...I find that if someone's projecting with me, I can usually find some little bit of annoyance or whatever that is, indeed, going on inside me."
I think that this is the point of why projection and introjection are so related: It's tempting to introject (internalize) any projection that is thrown on to us, or project any existing introjection that some other person reactivates or triggers for us. At some point it's hard to tell the difference, but being able to distinguish self from others is what separates most of us from those having a psychotic break with reality. On the other hand, resonating with another person, as McWilliams points out, is the basis for empathy, a very necessary and beneficial human trait.
So it's important to be able to tell when a projection is a healthy or unhealthy thing. Relying too much on projection can look paranoid and alienate us from the rest of the world. Not being able to project makes us cold and unfeeling. Like most things, there is probably a healthy balance in there somewhere that most of us must find for ourselves. -
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Re: Projections
Thu, February 8, 2007 - 11:37 PMProjection is imagining what another person is thinking or feeling.
'Positive projection' (common among new lovers, for example) results in them 'idealizing' each other as the 'perfect' mate, with perfectly compatible thoughts and feelings.
'Negative projection' (common among violent criminals, for example) results in them imagining others wish them the harmful fates they wish others.
The more some of these words are used the less useful they are. -
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Re: Projections
Fri, February 9, 2007 - 1:38 AM"Spltting" is characteristic of narcissistic and borderline personalities, whereby a person flips between idealization and demonization, or positive and negative projection. Severe borderline cases can actually split the social groups around them into two or more camps through their splitting behaviors. I've seen this happen more than once at new-agey gatherings lol :) -
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This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.
Re: Projections
Mon, February 19, 2007 - 7:46 PM"Severe borderline cases can actually split the social groups around them into two or more camps through their splitting behaviors."
Hmmm, you know, I think this may be something that people who are very introverted do, and that it needn't be a sign of pathology. Easier to deal with lots of people if they're divided up into groups, one or more of which can be ignored.
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Unsu...
Re: Projections
Fri, February 9, 2007 - 12:29 PMMy perspective is that yeah, of course people project all the time. You can't really understand another person at all unless you do that.
Example: someone says "I feel angry". To you, "angry" means some collection of thoughts, body sensations, images, etc. You assume that the other person is experiencing something similar to the sensations that you call "angry", and nod sagely and say "I understand." Some level of projection is necessary to communicate.
With regards to what happened with that person at Harbin, I think a more accurate/responsible way for her to say that would have been "When interacting with you, I started thinking I was wrong, and had an experience of being judged and criticized." That was her experience. The interesting question becomes how much of that is you, and how much is her?
Clearly you triggered something in her, which presumably doesn't get triggered by everyone she interacts with. Perhaps that "thing" that triggers her is that you have a tone of voice that sounds like her 3rd grade math teacher, who she hated. So that reaction may be isolated to her. Or perhaps you'll start an inquiry, and notice that a lot of people have an experience of being judged and wrong around you. It would be interesting to find out what's going on that's having lots of people react that way.
Either way, I consider it a point of inquiry, which is why I really enjoy getting feedback like that. YMMV. -
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Re: Projections
Fri, February 9, 2007 - 5:51 PMgenerally speaking,-
if it causes an 'uncontrollable' emotional response- then it is your own shit you are smelling. this is your ego's way of providing an opportunity 2 break out of the circles you are spinning. simply put there is 1)what happens- the litteral observation... ie. he said "you're lazy and don't put forth effort", or... she closed the door and walked away, 2) your story of what happens (continuing with the above examples)- he said "i'm a lazy runt and can't do anything right", or ... she closed the door in my face and walked away cause she thinks i'm not worth listening to, 3) what you make it mean and how you "project" the blame of the conflict/ argument onto the other person.
but let's get right to it: when you R in your Peace- no one can move you from it. example: someone throws a fit and curses about you arriving late to pick them up. person A yells and screams back and you have a full blown fight. person B says "oh, I'm sorry- what should we do from here?" or just remains in peaceful centre: the difference here lies in the internal grounding of person A compared to person B. they were both addressed the same way, so it must be the different polarity that each of them have towards the interaction. another way of saying that U are ulitmately responsible for your own peace and happiness. that does NOT mean that you allow people to treat you crappy or walk all over you, but simply that you are not affected or emotionally manipulated by it.
perception is the key to unlock the emotions we crave (are addicted to because emotions are opiates)- it has little to do with the actual event, and more to do with the addiction to certain emotions and ways of being.
blessings and sat nam,
Tasi -
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Re: Projections
Mon, February 12, 2007 - 1:36 PM"perception is the key to unlock the emotions we crave (are addicted to because emotions are opiates)- it has little to do with the actual event, and more to do with the addiction to certain emotions and ways of being. "
I have been processing my relationship with my daughter. Reading about how individuals start without a sense of me vs other and later discovers the difference and how that influences how well we handle those judgements started a fountain of memories over her lifetime. How my child became herself, how the things I project onto her that are mine actually have been positive or negative, how she has taken some of them into herself.
During the entire process I have had a sense of being an infinite part of it all layered over by different levels of consciousness all the way to the most mundane. I watched that layering happen to her and I see it in others.
What I am getting from this thread is how important it is to listen to what we are actually saying to each other. And I am getting that we have to learn to quiet our minds to hear each other. To me that is perceptiveness and that is the way away from unhealthy addiction to emotion.
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Unsu...
Re: Projections
Mon, February 12, 2007 - 3:00 PMGreat post Tasi.
"when you R in your Peace- no one can move you from it. example: someone throws a fit and curses about you arriving late to pick them up. person A yells and screams back and you have a full blown fight. person B says "oh, I'm sorry- what should we do from here?" or just remains in peaceful centre: the difference here lies in the internal grounding of person A compared to person B. they were both addressed the same way, so it must be the different polarity that each of them have towards the interaction. another way of saying that U are ulitmately responsible for your own peace and happiness. that does NOT mean that you allow people to treat you crappy or walk all over you, but simply that you are not affected or emotionally manipulated by it."
I completely resonate with this. -
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Re: Projections
Mon, February 12, 2007 - 3:25 PMhey lovely,
glad that you connected with it. i wish ya the best and just wanted to send you some support and compliments for your authenticity and openness.
peace be with you,
Tasi
ps. i am also a Transformation Counselor if you should hit any reoccuring difficulties in your life (and relationships). -
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This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.Unsu...
Re: Projections
Mon, February 12, 2007 - 4:03 PMI actually do agree with what Rebecca has said about the hook and the screen.
From the example I gave, I remember what was going on in me was that I was not too happy with the workshop as I felt that I was repeating many things though I did sense that there is value in repeating, yet I had a sense of "restlessness" or "not what I was looking for" so to say and I was a little bored honestly.
And perhaps this was interpreted by her as me being "critical or judgemental" of her. In a way, I was feeling slightly critical about the workshop and making some opinions.
The hook and screen that Rebecca has mentioned. -
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Re: Projections
Mon, February 12, 2007 - 4:53 PMhmmm.
so you're getting into the details... the speck... the I (eye)-
i have not read every single reply to this post- some are lengthy, but in what i have read there is blame, the ego, right and wrong-
these only will to Fear and all of it's faces (moves away, closes, shuts down, no, excludes, etc.)-
if you truly wish 2 transform, the key is found in YOUR Way of BE-ING (and you are the only thing getting in your way)
the more of your emotions, circumstances, and reality that you own, the more you have to sell or trade in for a New Way of BE-ING- a new experience of Your Soul-f.
you would benefit from taking responsibility for being "not too happy(... with the workshop)"- you think it's the workshop that you were unhappy with? hmmmm. but i suggest that perhaps you were just unhappy- and the workshop played the necessary reflection you requested (subconsciously from the universe) to have a reason, or blame 4 being unhappy. (this doesn't mean that the workshop was flawless or that it did not suck= perhaps it did suck, but that also does not mean that you are therefore doomed to b unhappy about it- make sense/ *people are meaning making machines*) unhappy is an emotion, but also a way of being- i'm sure you've met people who are "unhappy" b 4. in short spurts it's a mood, an emotion, that passes on the water like waves- but when the space is replayed and sustained for minutes and hours and days- it's a way of being. for some it IS their way of being, for others it comes in phases, and still others experience the raw timeless momentary emotion. this is no judgement of you- as i said b 4, i compliment you for your authenticity and sharing. i am simply offering a door- an effective one,... 4 transformation: YOU
A.) if she, any person, or any "thing" is to blame,... if the world is happening TO us, then... why try? you sit in powerlessness. (i must say right now "Thank You, God/dess and reflection", 4 as i am sharing this with you, i have had my own breakthrough in my own way of being- thanks). moving on-
B.) if YOU happen to the world ("real" or not, if it is your BE-LIFE) then you sit empowered. to create... new... BE-ING (not better, not different, not changed- NEW, creation started from the Void)
do you relate?-
should eye continue?
blessings and sat nam,
Tasi
*special note- incredibly deep reflection... the deeper you go, the deeper it goes- -
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Re: Projections
Mon, February 12, 2007 - 9:04 PMI love that you all are thinking about this stuff. As a convenient screen for lots of projections, I can tell you that it is not fun. I am a far better person than I was 20 years ago and 20 years ago I got very few negative projections coming at me. Adyashanti says that when he stopped caring about whether people projected onto him, it stopped happening, but I'm not there yet and it sucks. Excuse my whining, but it's getting to me.
Taj -
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Re: Projections
Tue, February 13, 2007 - 7:19 PMOne of my favorite teachers in my holistic clinical psych grad program said something like "When you think you have arrived, that's when you're probably ready for a big surprise" LOL - we're all learning and relearning all the time...
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Unsu...
Re: Projections
Mon, February 19, 2007 - 10:42 PM"you would benefit from taking responsibility for being "not too happy(... with the workshop)"- you think it's the workshop that you were unhappy with? hmmmm. but i suggest that perhaps you were just unhappy- and the workshop played the necessary reflection you requested ........"
>>>>Tasi, Yes I agree.
I do take responsibility for my state of being in the workshop. Therefore the "restlessness" in me I mentioned. And I do understand that whatever I percieve on the outside of me is probably a reflection or in parts at least, already exists in me. -
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Unsu...
Re: Projections
Wed, April 25, 2007 - 10:26 AMHello dear responders....
Looks like this thread of conversation has come to its natural end....I just wanted to thank all of you who responded.asked/participated in any way.
I would have loved to hear more "real" examples from your life. But whatever was shared was wonderful.
To end this thread (not that no one is allowed to respond anymore, just 'coz its been quite for a while here), I had wanted to post this little excerpt from the book "The New Earth" by Eckhart Tolle I read a while back, a while back but never got around to it....too many academic deadlines. I think its in line with this topic.
So here goes:
Page 93.
".......Instead of human beings, conceptual mental images are interacting with each other. The more identified people are with their respective roles, the more inauthentic the relationships become. You have a mental image not only of who the other person is, but also of who you are, especially in relation to the person you are interacting with. So 'you' are not relating with that person at all, who you think you are is relating to who you think the other person is and vice versa. The conceptual image your mind has made of yourself is relating to its own creation, which is the conceptual image it has made of the other person. The other person's mind has probably done the same, so every egoic interaction between 2 people is in reality the interaction between 4 conceptual mind-made entities that are ultimately fictions.
It is therefore not surprising there is so much conflict in relationships. There is 'no' true relationship."
I hope you find something in this for yourself as I found something in this for myself a few months ago.
I will be back soon......Wish me strength in the meantime for challenging times ahead. :-)
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Unsu...
Re: Projections
Mon, February 12, 2007 - 2:56 PMHi Jon,
In response to:
"With regards to what happened with that person at Harbin, I think a more accurate/responsible way for her to say that would have been "When interacting with you, I started thinking I was wrong, and had an experience of being judged and criticized." That was her experience. The interesting question becomes how much of that is you, and how much is her?"
>>>Yes, I agree, that is a more responsible way of communicating one's experience.
Clearly you triggered something in her, which presumably doesn't get triggered by everyone she interacts with. Perhaps that "thing" that triggers her is that you have a tone of voice that sounds like her 3rd grade math teacher, who she hated. So that reaction may be isolated to her. Or perhaps you'll start an inquiry, and notice that a lot of people have an experience of being judged and wrong around you. It would be interesting to find out what's going on that's having lots of people react that way.
>>>>>I did start a process of inquiry by asking people around me if they have a similar experience with me. This is what I did at the workshop, discreetly with people I had interacted with as I wished to distinguish it from being a real feedback vs. someone's projection that I was not responsible for (including the workshop facilitator) and the response was "No". So I let it be. Though every once in a while I ask these questions to friends amd see what their response is. This truly helps.
I started the current spate of conversations on projections started because I feel someone I am close to keeps projecting the spilt personality or shadow onto people with who this person is in relationship with. And therefore I would like to inquire and reflect further into projections so I am able to distinguish better and not allow them to land on me.
Most people I have talked to about projections so far (including a friend who is a pyschotherapist) have confirmed my belief that that projections are inherrent to humans. All of us do that and it is almost required in relationship (as Jon says) but important to become conscious of healthy versus unhealthy projections (spartca and others)
This discussion is great! Thanks to all of you.
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Re: Projections
Thu, February 15, 2007 - 10:30 PM1. Simply put, a projection is a feeling or knowing that the projectee accepts. Yes, as many as there are asanas. No. It is implicit in human nature. Correct.
2. If there is market demand then you will have a supply. Globalization is not new. No. A Market and a Love are synonyms. (I forget the name of the term/case where demand equals supply perfectly, college was a little while ago)
A shadow projection is not an asana. Shadows reveal much of our human hubris. -
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Re: Projections
Fri, February 16, 2007 - 9:14 AMAvoid people who project thoughts and feelings onto you with which you are unhappy or uncomfortable, especially if they’re wrong. Treat antagonistic projections as veiled threats.
Treat the happy fantasy projections of others as just that; happy fantasy projections. Enjoy them. -
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Re: Projections
Mon, February 19, 2007 - 7:47 PMOr point out that their perception is innacurate and may be internal bias. Some people get it and get over it.
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